Tom Clough has spent the past 20 years negotiating the trials and tribulations of working in professional Rugby League & Rugby Union. Learning from mistakes he made as a coach, as well as the adversity of clubs going through administrations and relegations through to the highs of promotion. Tom now works as the Head of Athletic Performance at Ulster Rugby, where he has spent the past 4 seasons. Tom has learnt that whilst you can make quick progress going it alone as a practitioner, you can also make big mistakes. Now he fully invests in trying to facilitate a co-created training environment where players and staff can consistently develop and perform.
In this episode Tom discusses:
- His time at Bradford Bulls, Hull KR and a stint at Mike Boyle’s facility.
- Facing tough times in Rugby League with relegation and administration.
- How these challenges also brought opportunities.
- The importance of coaching systems and processes.
- Guiding people rather than issuing directives.
- Meeting people where they are at and recruiting for knowledge/skills gaps
- The importance of recruiting slow and firing fast.
- The importance of collective CPD and productive discussions in a coaching team.
You can listen to the episode in full here.
You can connect with Tom via his Twitter @TCloughie or his LinkedIn page.
Join us in Edinburgh, Scotland for the LTAD Network Workshop on February 25th & 26th, where Rob Anderson and Jared Deacon will be covering the LTAD Network pathway and all things adolescent training including the development of strength, power, speed and agility. Get your tickets now here!
To learn more about the LTAD Network check out www.ltadnetwork.com or follow on Instagram: @ltadnetwork or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ltadnetwork .
You can keep up to date with Athletic Evolution via our www.athleticevolution.co.uk , Instagram: @athleticevouk and Twitter: @athleticevouk .
Rob Anderson
Good morning, Tom. It’s great to have you on this morning. Thanks for your time.
Tom Clough
Cheers, Rob. Thanks for making time for me this morning.
Rob Anderson
Yeah it’s always busy pro rugby is can be a pretty unforgiving schedule. So trying to swoop in there’s a window of opportunity is always important thing to do.
Tom Clough
No, no, it’s all good. Yeah, appreciate the time good to get a break and talk about something other than robbery probably.
Rob Anderson
So before we dive into your role at Ulster, and the ones you’ve helped before, take us back a little bit to when there was a young time running around what was the sports that captured your imagination? Was it always rugby union? or were there other things taken about in there?
Tom Clough
Yeah, well, I’m from you’ll tell from the accent although I’m an officer I’ve been out in in Ireland based in Northern Ireland I’m from the north of England so I believe is is my background. I we’ve tried every spot go in cricket for a bit and in football, but you have no no talent in either of those and probably a little talent in the league as well. But I did enjoy it for the most part through through my childhood. So yeah, that’d be me were very, very sporty. Yeah, I just loved everything about sports, I would play anything and everything and anything or everything.
Rob Anderson
So when was it that you realise that maybe the rugby league career wasn’t going to be your path that coaching was something that was kind of calling out to you? When did that kind of start to enter your frame of mind thinking?
Tom Clough
Well, I don’t think it’s a prerequisite to having a successful s&c career, but obviously, I think a lot of them, a lot of us do fail in sport, either through talent off, so injury, and I probably failed through both. Yeah, I kind of got up to kind of like a semi pro level coming out of uni. And yeah, a couple of couple of bad injuries, and probably a lack of a lack of top end talent. We’ll probably see on my fit in terms of how far we’ve gone. And to be honest, like initially, I came out of spot for a while, but I was pretty fed up by that point kind of early 20s. And I came away for from it for probably about five years. And then I started feeling the pull to come back. And that’s when I came back into it.
Rob Anderson
So what unique was that you went to and what kind of career twists and turns did you take Post uni?
Tom Clough
Yeah, well, I did. I do sport management degree at Northumbria and then I like I spent I was playing at Huddersfield at the time in the in the academy. And I spent all my time back in Huddersfield to be honest and sacrifice masters for that. So I kind of limped through a degree to some sorts, and then I studied, I didn’t really have a clue what I wanted to do, you know, I just was just interested in sports and just follow up that path. And it’s turned out whatever it has, but I did some Sports Therapy, then, through a private institution, when when I got out of uni, did a little bit work in personal training qualification through the American College of Sports Medicine. And then I got into personal training, really. And I kind of shifted around there for a few years.
Rob Anderson
It’s quite a common route for a lot of people, isn’t it? It’s like kind of figuring out, okay, maybe I don’t want to be a sports coach, but I don’t necessarily know what to do. And you kind of get into coaching human beings, you know, just in a general public level when they think, oh, maybe I’d like to try to have some athletes.
Tom Clough
Well, as I’ve gone from my through my career, I’ve only just done a piece of reflective work, actually. And yeah, in that process, probably realising that I am a coach, first and foremost, and it’s a passion and it is a drive. And I think I’ve I don’t know, I find that being although I’m in this position of being taken out, or I allow myself to come out of that a little bit, maybe thinking it was it was something much more than it was on my value is better spent elsewhere, when in reality, I’m a coach, I like helping people. And that’s a real value of mine. So actually, I’ve really enjoyed that process of getting back into coaching a lot more and, and I think, yeah, that’s it, those that can’t teach. And I think I think we’re teachers at heart and yeah, at that point where I couldn’t, even though I was obviously trying to earn a living through being a personal trainer. And I think that that teaching and coaching aspect of the sport has brought me back in, you know, a few years later.
Rob Anderson
So the light bulb goes on, you think okay, this is the coaching is going to be the route for me. What did that next step look like? Was it back to uni? Was it getting hands on experience combination of the two?
Tom Clough
Yeah. Well, it was it was trying to figure out like, what what does that look like? You know, I had a personal training business. We had we had staff working for us, we had a few sites that we were managing, you know, it’s going reasonably well, but it was it was tough enough as well. And I suppose I was looking back in then I was looking back in a spot and looking and I was aware of strength and conditioning. I’d been through it myself had been taught well. We had a strength and conditioning coach Trevor commons that Huddersfield and you know, I really enjoyed the stuff we were working on. At dawn, the spots that have been worked with a few teams, I’ll be interested in contracts in periods. So when I started looking at in, and a lot of my reading and study, Mike Boyle strength and conditioning was standing out as all of this could be, this could be a root into see what this is about. And I’m kind of one of those always tries to immerse myself in something. And I just felt ready for that break. So at 26 I, yeah, I sent an email to Mike. And then I don’t know, probably three months later, I was living in Boston for three months on a on a full time internship.
Rob Anderson
What was that like? Because Mike’s obviously got a bit of a persona online, I guess. Now, I’ve been a bit of a grumpy old man, if you had him on the podcast a few months back, and he was fantastic around this kind of programming 101 and things like that. So what was your experience when he you know, when you go and meet here as a person, or you meet these people in person? Is it? You know, does he come across the way he is day to day? Or is he you know, a bit more personable in the flesh? What’s he like?
Tom Clough
Yeah, you know, I think what you realise is that that’s, that’s the business and it’s extremely well run. And the good things about that business is that he’s systemized, a programme that gets put out no matter what level people are out and, and what you see or what I follow. So it was it was very clutch intensive, which I think is a really good thing. And something that we try and push here, it also is clutch intensive, it’s appropriate. And it develops people. And I think what people get maybe hacked off is that it’s not all bells and whistles and, and fancy things. But actually, the principles do what he does have done really, really well. They’ve done really, really consistently, you don’t see unhappy athletes in that facility. And it’s really well run and you take a lot from that. And it’s not just from Mike, it’s actually his staff and policy and where some of his staff have gone to an industry as well, like you’re doing something right, if that’s the case. So yeah, you know, you read some of the stories and some of the comments with with a little bit of a little bit of a smile, but I think he’s just a decent guy that has a really good business and and he’s pretty savvy with in the strength and conditioning world.
Rob Anderson
Yeah, it’s, it’s funny because you get these people who maybe polarise opinion, but I, I think Mike Boyle is one of the ones who you probably end up coming back to over and over time, like, one of the things that he said, on the podcast, or tweet that really, in now, in retrospect makes a huge amount of sense is is how your facility dictates your programming, like you can want to do, you know, potentially getting work with bands and chains or wherever we haven’t got it, you can’t do it. So you’ve got to fit your programme to the space you’re in. And oftentimes, if you’re in an academy setup, that might be a venue that’s not, you know, 100% ideal, or, you know, schedule is changing, there’s two teams training at once, and suddenly you’re at the pitch instead of at the gym. And, you know, having that flexibility to realise actually, you’ve got this idea of what you might like to do in your head, but realistically, you’re constrained by your environment and doing the most appropriate thing there. It’s really important.
Tom Clough
Yeah, and, you know, breaks the programme down as well into its components, and then basically teaches those components really, really well. And then when you put it together, it’s it’s a pretty decent, comprehensive programme. And, you know, listen, there’s always stuff about the D squat, squat, but there’s people squatting in that facility. But I think that I think, I think the perception or the persona that’s been portrayed suits the marketing. And people can complete, they can have a go see for themselves as I did. Or they can they can come up to their own conclusions. Like, I don’t know. Yeah, my day goes on regardless. Yeah,
Rob Anderson
I think it’s really interesting what you said there about having, you know, a kind of a programming system, because I think one of the things that can happen with s&c is, you know, as you said, having something that was consistent across all levels, and appropriately, it frees you then up to do the real coaching, to give the individual bits of feedback, the cues, but if you’re constantly managing the space or managing it, you need to go and do this, you need to go and do that, actually, you’re a bit more of a logistics manager than a coach. And actually, you’re not given the ethic, the feedback or the little improvements and tweaks that they need.
Tom Clough
Absolutely. I just think in my career coming full circle back to back to that back to the coach interaction, and actually, you know, we have great bits of technology, that means you can programme in certain things and you can almost create all this autonomy, you know, in a programme for a player and the player is probably probably crying out for a bit more guidance from the coach, that’s, that’s an expert in this area and can guide them through that and then, you know, you can get the autonomy on the back end. But we also you know, I think I think of my journey, kind of three professional clubs that I’ve been at it kind of coming back to this, how do you facilitate small coach groups, which was definitely the setup, Mike boils if I think back, you know, but So for example here I take props and locks and but I’ve got I’ve got three other coaches working with me there wants to take in the background hookers wants to taking the center’s out half’s and what’s taken about three. And I think getting that interaction of, of coach athlete at those small numbers, the progress I think we’ve made on the back of making that changes is ridiculous compared to programming through technology before and it being all singing, all dancing, we, you know, we haven’t gone back to pen and paper for individual athletes, but we’ve gone back as a group to, this is going to be a coach session. And these loads, reps, sets, exercises are going to be figured out as we go through. And it’s going to be an actual personal interaction, and it’s going to be right for you as an individual. But while still being while I still know for a team, that the system in place means that the team’s working on the themes that we want to get better at.
Rob Anderson
Absolutely. So take us back to some of those initial roles. So Bradford balls is obviously one of the initial start starting in the academy. What was it like jumping into that environment being an academy s&c coach in the regular League World?
Tom Clough
Yeah, I love that. Like, yeah, absolutely loved it, you know, there’s just realities in rugby league and Academy level, it just doesn’t you can’t make a living out of doing that. So that was very much personal training through the day, going to the academy as a volunteer initially, a little bit of money the next year, a little bit of money the year after, but you know, nothing that’s going to do anything for you. Apart from keep petrol in the car, and you know, you just with young guys probably close, obviously closer to my age, then that are trying to achieve things that I couldn’t achieve, but where I felt I still could add value. I think yeah, I learned a hell of a lot in in that role. And, and then that went obviously that created the opportunity to go into the senior team as the head when, you know, it was a club that was really successful, and then went through administrations and various changes, and within that his opportunity, but within that as well as massive challenge, and I felt I learned I learned so much about professional sport. In that period, I’d say programming wise and s&c wise. I was really in what I thought was my programme. And and what I felt by doing that kind of as a lawn practitioner with one of the staff members, eventually, is that I could do really well on certain things really fast. And I also could do really badly on other things because I just couldn’t scale anything and have to have all the bases covered. So yeah, big, big learning period for me, Bradford
Rob Anderson
and then obviously took a little step away into the academic world at Leeds Beckett, what was that role? Like? You’re a part time lecturer. Is that right?
Tom Clough
Yeah, well, you know, I suppose luckily, through the contacts that I made at Bradford at the time, and you know, I’d been kind of let go out of the contract at Bradford. And you find yourself, you know, we’re not the best network. And you know, there’s no job. There’s not a big job market out there. So luckily, I managed to get some lecturing. I was at Leeds and I had done my masters there previously. So we’re still Yeah, that’s a good experience. I like got coming back to that coaching teaching is the same thing, really. So it kept my I suppose it scratched that itch. And it allowed me to go through that year with a view of thing getting back into the like, I’ve never been I suppose but for many people listening like I will still have online personal training clients now. You know, even though I’ve moved up moved away like I can’t I’m not one of those things that this is my only kind of role. I don’t really mind who I coach. So whether that’s personal training, whether that’s like training, whether it’s through through my full time professional in s&c Like I’m not, not a snob to any of it, like it all ties in with with me as a person and, and ultimately, the responsibility that I’m also got a wife and kids as well.
Rob Anderson
I think that’s the thing. You talked to a lot of experienced coaches that ultimately it does boil back to that just helping human beings improve. Like and if that person happens to be a professional rugby player, great if that person happens to be a 12 year old kid great. Or 30 year old, working professional great. Like if you want to work with me I want to work with you kind of thing.
Tom Clough
Yes, absolutely. Now couldn’t couldn’t agree more. Like it’s yeah, you know, but um, yeah, like players have got their own stuff going on. And obviously, you know, whose star players and who’s developing players and so on, but I suppose for my philosophy, like to me, it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter what that like just just doesn’t make any kind of difference to me just I’ll treat the person as as, as their common and as they treat me.
Rob Anderson
So tell us a bit about the transition to Hull KR and then when Ulster appeared on the horizon what take us back and tell us a bit about your time there.
Tom Clough
Yeah, hopefully ah was again a pretty different experience so when in Jimmy peacock took me into Hull KR had gone in and out so it’ll be great guy when an absolute turn off him in that position and then we went through turmoil a whole chaos because we got relegated in that first year and the odds are stacked against you then to win number one you need someone that’s going to back you and realise that your programme was not sh*t you know and that you’re capable of getting the team back are playing a role in getting the team back into the Super League from the championship and the with the salary cap and stuff like that the odds are pretty tough to get back and luckily we got back within the first year of asking Tim Sheen’s are coming in was the former Australia coach. Lots of experience and again, like I suppose I think what I’m really lucky to do is learn from really high performing people as I’ve gotten through my career but they’re all completely different so even at Bradford you know, where we’re going through these administration Francis Collins was the head coach, you know, an absolute tonne you know, and then when a new coach came in and I was being let go, yeah, it was a negative experience at the time but I also learned a hell of a lot from experience as well and these experience experiences are obviously part of the journey but the ship what practitioner you end up becoming and and I really enjoyed it. Okay, I really enjoyed working with it with the coaches there and the team. And then we got promoted we stayed in Super League and then I’ve got the opportunity to come across over to union which was I suppose I’ve flirted with in the past a little bit but I got the opportunity then to come across to Ulster. And it was just kind of a random opportunity that came came up applied, you know, like, everyone thinks it’s, it is contacts. And a lot of the times it is but this was just a genuine application form online interview process. And, well, yeah, that just just just took it didn’t know much about it and just took it as an opportunity. And actually the growth I’ve had for years now, I’ve been here can the growth as be huge and really enjoyable.
Rob Anderson
How’d you find it switching carriers obviously, I mean, there’s a huge amount of similarity and overlap in terms of the competitive element, the running, you know, the nature of the game, some obviously, some very different intricacies in terms of things like line outs of scrums. How, you know, was there a learning curve for you in that or are you pretty already comfortable in that world?
Tom Clough
Yeah, no, I wasn’t comfortable in that Well, no. Yeah, but first and foremost, I have more staff here than than I’ve had in previous roles. One of the guys she encountered that worked with me a hawk er is over with me now it also but I have a few more staff at all certain the staff that were already in place with very, very good which afforded me time to to learn and understand and actually take a take a an extended view of what the programme where I was strong where it was weak, you know what, what kind of changes I might want to bring in what the head coach at the time wanted to bring in you know, because he’d come in maybe just a month or two before me so I was trying to facilitate all that and then get to grips with all these different positional demands which when you and but that’s not the complicated bit really, it’s just it’s just the people it’s just getting getting to know other people and okay, what do these guys know? And, and where are their strengths, where their weaknesses and what kind of programme can we put together?
Rob Anderson
So how would you describe your philosophy in your programming? We’ve talked a little bit about you know, processes and systems and the small group stuff, what for you is the really important bit and what’s the the icing or the fluff on top of the cake. So what are your big focuses and what are the nice to haves?
Tom Clough
Yeah, I think if I’m thinking coming through, I was at Bradford, I could dictate everything that I wanted to in terms of programming and would would try and run an all singing all dancing individualised programme. And through that you can get really, really good really, really quickly in certain areas and you can get really bad in other areas come to okay, I’ve now got stuff and I’ve now got different knowledge To my knowledge, and I’m trying to facilitate how that, how that goes in. And I’ve got changes of coaches quite often. So I’m then trying to take this rugby philosophy, the philosophy of staff, mixed with what I want to achieve with the team and try and put that together and do that to varying degrees of success and failure. And then I come to Ulster. And I’ve got more staff here, but I’ve got a bigger programme to run now. And, you know, in my position here, I’m employed by the IRFU. And with Ulster, so I’ve got what the head coach wants. So I’ve got what the head coach wants. And then I’ve got what the national team wants to work towards. So a couple of different KPIs there that that you’re trying to marry together. So it becomes about systems becomes about people, and about the different talent, that I’ve got my disposable here, you know, and that’s, that’s what I’m gifted with, you know, so actually doesn’t become about my philosophies anymore. It becomes around, okay, what are the KPIs from these different areas? What’s the talent we’ve got within a department? How does that department work with other departments to get the most from this programme? So? Yeah, it just becomes around people think that that’s the main focus. And then actually, you know, once you’ve communicated, and you’re you’re trying to get buy in and alignment on certain things that you want it to work on. So then if we pick an s&c theme, and go, right, we want to work on lower body strength, and we want to work on power, I want to work on speed. It actually, I need all coaches to be able to coach to a similar level to similar agreed outputs. And so then it becomes about, well, what what you know, if you include them, they’ll bind to a lot more, so I’m not looking to tell them? Well, you must do this at this time, even though that’s probably the outcome that I want, it becomes around, right? You know, how do you want to develop this? How do we get towards these standards? Do we agree that these standards should be in place? And how do we do this as a collective and ensure accountability? And then what you find is you’ve got this bigger programme that’s actually now performing really well in lots of different areas, as opposed to just a few different themes.
Rob Anderson
So how would you, you know, one of the things that’s kind of coming out there is leading other people and leading the team of people, whether that’s not just the small groups coaching, but leading other coaches across the club, what do you think are some of the things that maybe people don’t think about when you go from being an individual coach who’s employed under someone else to when you’re the head honcho, or when you’re the head of athletic performance around some of that stuff that isn’t the sets and reps and the exercises, but those leadership skills, you know, so many, so many times people come into a leadership position, they’re trying to create little mini clones of themselves, which can, you know, can work in a very authoritative situation, but not always the best way forward? What’s been some of your learnings around that transition to leadership with a bigger team?
Tom Clough
Yeah, you trying to, you need to meet people where they’re at. And where their philosophy is currently at. And where people are at now is not where they’re going to be at in a year’s time. Or the shouldn’t be if they’re evolving and changing. And what I think is the common theme within this industry, and just within people involved in professional sport is, is everyone wants to do better. Everyone wants to develop such that that hunger to learn is, is probably what collaborates people better than anything, you know, if you want to challenge someone on philosophy, then it may become a discussion or an argument. But actually, if it’s in the process, or it’s in the mindset of getting better, then people will probably discuss them and be a little bit more open. And, you know, the reality is that not everything, I think, is is right. And the more and the more I think is probably wrong. And if I’ve got these staff members here, and they’re all actually because we’ve recruited as well. So whenever we recruit, we recruit for skill gaps on knowledge gaps, we don’t recruit, what we want to recruit, what we do is take a profile of what the department’s doing, what are your strengths? What are your strengths? What are your strengths? Where do you think we’re deficient? Where do we need help? And that everyone agrees that okay, we need help and expertise in this particular area. That’s what we go to market for. And that’s that person coming in then has already got the bane of the entire department. Because we all know why that why they’re coming in, and that when they speak on that subject area, they’re actually leading that so. We’ve been working. We’ve been working on people met, being able to make decisions in the programme but taking accountability for that, you know, so ultimately they have areas that they lead, but they’ve got to collaborate across the entire programme, but they’ve got to be with sponsible for the areas they lead.
Rob Anderson
Yeah, recruitment pieces is a really interesting topic. Because, you know, often you can speak to practitioners and they get recruited to, you know, a team or whatever, but then the expertise they were brought in for, they’re not actually allowed to bring to the table, or it’s not aligned with the head coach’s philosophy or whatever. So oftentimes, you know, I laugh when you see teams bringing in a whole load of experts, and then think, well, you’ve paid these people to be here, and then you’re not listening to them. And so it’s, it’s great to hear that sort of situation where you are saying that, you know, we brought you on board for this, you’re as much as you’re here to learn from us, we’re here to learn from you. And and, you know, given people, I guess, a little area of authority, where it’s like, look, this is we’re gonna come to you about these questions, or we’re gonna come to you for this knowledge, I think that’s really refreshing and important to see that people are bringing different skill sets of not just many claims, I think
Tom Clough
we’re, we’re lucky that we have a head coach that that sets the themes around, if you’re in this environment, these are the kinds of themes that you will work towards. And one of those is personal growth through through squeeze every drop. One of those is power of us, which is which is the collective and the collective being stronger than the individual. And then squeeze every drop, which is which is self development. So it’s never really a personal to have a really a personal conversation when you’re talking around. Well, if you’re here, and you’ve been explained that this is what this is how we operate, and this is who we want to work with. And we’re recruiting some of those values, then, as often as you don’t have too much of an issue, you know, you’ve got someone with a growth mindset coming in. And if you’ve recruited right, then you know that there’ll be open to conversations around situations and that actually, okay, you may be the speed guy, but your responsibilities, speed, the development and the output. But the how is the responsibility of the collective. It’s just you grab it, you’re responsible for making sure it gets done, and making sure that that gets facilitated. So they can operate within the system, they can lead within a system. But that doesn’t mean that they’ve got to do that on their own. And nor should you want to be successful here, you shouldn’t do it on your own either, because because, you know, the same philosophy is what I’m going to use. Not everything I know is true and correct.
Rob Anderson
It’s an interesting one, as well, because it sounds great. In an ideal world, everyone kind of gets along collaboratively, but always how it works. So what about some of the kind of conflict resolution stuff? How have you gone through some of the things where there may be are differing opinions? How do you decide right? Well, this is the course of action we’re going to take.
Tom Clough
Yeah, I think the longer I’ve gone on in this role, the kind of themes of CPD we do we do as a collective rather than individually. Because I think what used to find is people go to their strengths, and the will go to the reinforce what the belief as opposed to challenging what the what the beliefs are the product, go out there and find someone that’s doing something that they’re already reading about that they’re already interested in. And therefore the ultimately, whatever they say they get this guru status, and they go down a path with that we’re really what we’ll try and do now is do collective learning. And we’ll either bring people in, or we’ve even started opening our CPD up to practitioners outside. So we’ll, we’ll sell a number of places on our casters. And it’ll be there’ll be our CPD events. But also, we’ll invite other people in because we want to network with other people within this fine environment across Ulster, or across the island, you know, across Ireland and the UK if they want to come across. But, but ultimately, the mindset that we’ve got is, we’re trying to learn from people, we’re trying to learn from different people. So when you go on that, you know, we’re doing some work at the moment around speed, for example, we’ll do that as a collective will we’ll then evaluate as a collective, what do we like about it? What do we not like about it? Where do we want to go with it? What changes do we want to make? And then those changes, I think, probably got more chance of sticking. And everyone understands why those change changes are in place. And then that’s what I feel the you know, the development is?
Rob Anderson
Yeah, that’s a really good point, because I think collective CPD does feed back into what you’re saying around that creating that discussion, isn’t it? Because, you know, we can go to a workshop on shoulder rehab, and someone’s got some different ideas and say, Well, what do you think about that guy? Oh, actually, I’m not sure I found this works a lot better or you know, whereas as you say, you go off in your silo, and you do an online course on your own and you think this is great. How do I get everyone up to this level of knowledge, it can be difficult to bridge the gap.
Tom Clough
So hard. Yeah. So, you know, you can’t tell people what to do. You know, you can guide people to places but ultimately, they’ve got to be involved in it and they’ve got to arrive on their own. I think if you do it collaboratively, they just arrive a little bit faster and live with some allies as well. And then ultimately see like You know, not everyone has to agree either. I think if you replace, I think if you’re in a place as well, where you’ve maybe put 10 opinions across, and none of them have landed, then there’s a problem. But I think if you can accept the MSA, 10 things, three things get thrown off the table, three things get discussed around, and four actually make it to some kind of change. I think you’d be fairly happy with that. You know, and it doesn’t become about you and your ego, it just becomes about what’s right for the programme. What’s right for the athlete, it was right for the club.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai