Kevin Shattock is currently working towards his professional doctorate (DProf) at Leeds Beckett University, exploring a biopsychosocial approach to athlete development. He is the Head of Athletic Development at The Grammar School at Leeds (GSAL) and possesses over twenty five years’ experience of sports coaching, sports science support, strength & conditioning, and athlete performance.
In this episode Kevin discusses:
- His wide and varied experiences of coaching and teaching.
- The Grammar School Leeds program and how it’s grown since his time there.
- What athletes will remember after their time with us.
- Why we should consider our “fingerprints” as coaches.
- How the Sagrada Familia provides an excellent example of long term thinking.
You can can listen to the episode in full here.
You can keep up to date with Kevin via his Twitter: @TheFiveWsPod and his ResearchGate profile: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kevin-Shattock .
To learn more about the LTAD Network check out www.ltadnetwork.com or follow on Instagram: @ltadnetwork or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ltadnetwork . You can keep up to date with Athletic Evolution via our www.athleticevolution.co.uk , Instagram: @athleticevouk and Twitter: @athleticevouk .
Rob Anderson
Kevin, fantastic to have you on the podcast. Thanks for joining us despite the jetlag from your your holiday.
Kevin Shattock
Thank you very much for the invite.
Rob Anderson
No problem. Well, I saw you speak at the recent Ltd in schools, our conference down at Leeds Beckett, and I thought it’d be really fantastic to have a bit of a conversation Well, one because what you were talking about really spoke to me and I think it’s a conversation that I have with a lot of people. And it’s always good to get a bit of a message out there. But before we dive into that, give us your story. So tell us, what is sport look like for you? How did you fall in love with sport? What were the sports you got involved in as a youngster?
Kevin Shattock
I think like most coaches, I’m a failed athlete. Sport has paid played a huge part of my life from a very early age. As a child, I had every part every ball going. I was generally a good mover, decent, more sports, but never really excelled at any. And my first one was cycling. And the reason I probably love cycling is based on a movie called American flyers, which has Kevin Costner as an actor. And that introduced me to the world of sports medicine, as the Americans call it. What it was a scene in the movie where it’s called a torture test, and the athletes on a treadmill, and it’s a bit like the blink test, it starts off really slow. And for those that have done the bleep test, the first couple of levels, everyone thinks the dead easy. We have a laugh, we have the joke on. But as the seconds and the minutes tick by the trembling goes faster, and inclines. They’ve got lots of electrodes on there’s lots of readouts. So I was intrigued by someone pushing themselves to that limit. I didn’t know what sports medicine was, is Strength & Conditioning, athletic development hadn’t even been given that title, and probably not during the 20 years, but I was intrigued by that process. And even as a kid, I enjoyed teaching others about sport, like I remember, quite clearly, we were having a football coaching session after primary school one day, so I must have been 910 year olds. And I was teaching two or three of those of my peers how to do a craft turn. And I could do it, I could move quite well. And they were struggling with it. I just I really enjoy it. And I got a kick out of helping other people learn and be able to perform a skill and, and develop. So I would say I’ve always had something in me that wanted to help others. And as my sporting journey progressed and didn’t get to the levels, that most young men, and I still think I can be a pro athlete. At times, you know, I could pull that shirt or when I’m on my bike, you know, I still think I can sprint to that lamppost and be you know, Mark Cavendish and everything else. But as as that journey, or the realisation that I wasn’t going to make it as a pro athlete or whatever. The torching and the sport science really kicked in. So for me, it’s been a lifelong journey from a young age. And I would say my first real job as a physical trainer structure in the RAF really propelled me into coaching and what I do now
Rob Anderson
so what does that journey look like? Obviously started in the RAF, what’s been some of the notable steps along the way to take you to grammar school and lead I was in the RAF for seven years as a physical training instructor. It’s the only service you can join directly as a PTA. She got a really good grounding in coaching sports, working, you know, on the S&C side, developing people, making sure service personnel are ready for the rigours of operations or just leading a healthy lifestyle. After those seven years, I got into lecturing within further education, a little timeout in 2007, where I spent a year in Canada as a mountain guide. Going back to the UK, I did some work within special education, which I loved. And then in 2015 I thought I’m going to I’m going to make a We’ll go this coaching lock. So I dropped out full time work. And, you know, picked up the part time jobs, you know, did anything I could to pay the rent, put food on the table, but really chest, this cord injury. And it hasn’t turned out the way I imagined or most people envisage. But got back into academia, I really loved that aspect. I never thought I would. And then, through pieces of the jigsaw Jigsaw coming together, my current boss interviewed me for a different role. But like my interview, so much didn’t get the job interview for but like me so much he created the role I now have. So yeah, it’s taken me all 25 years plus to get to where I am today, working within the independent sector, been able to work across hundreds of students, numerous sports, and giving them the foundations that will hopefully, springboard to an athletic career, or a lifelong learn a life long love of health fitness being active.
Rob Anderson
That’s really interesting, because you mentioned early on, obviously, yeah, this love of teaching people and stuff. And it seems like that carry through whether it’s an altitude or at sea level, whether it’s able bodied or special needs, or practical or theoretical seems like that coaching teaching, you know, help facilitating learning has been discontinued thread for you all the way through.
Kevin Shattock
Yeah, and it’s strange, because I didn’t particularly enjoy school. I loved college. And that’s one of the experiences that you know, when people think or reflect and where would you go back to one of the first places I would go back to if I had a time machine is my college years, I met some amazing people there. You’re studying so that you really want to focus on you know, your 60 7080 year old girl independence, just had a great time and come back to academia lit? Well, yeah, that that one and that need to help people and develop them in different ways use their body to the best of their ability. Yeah, it’s always been with me.
Rob Anderson
So tell us a bit about life at the grammar school at Leeds, what does an average day in the life look like for you? What’s the sort of ranges of sports and activities and ages that you’re dipping in and out of?
Kevin Shattock
So my day starts, I caught by seven, every day. Before and After School, we have what we call a core curricular programme. So GCL, the grammar school at Leeds is an independent school, from three years of age all the way up to 18. It’s a fee paying school. And I think we have in the range of 2000 students slightly below or slightly over. I think, I don’t do work within the senior school. I do a little bit of work with the primary school, but some Gregory, who’s our PhD student that only works in there that that is still your focus, do a little bit of crossover, work with him, but he’s really driving that younger end of the spectrum in that transition into the senior school. So yeah, don’t really use a 11 to 18 years of age. So caught by seven, my dear starts. And anyone that is in a school sport team has access to the gym and me. So each morning, man encouraged those athletes that are playing at a decent level, we do have a number of students at GSL that are in national governing body pathways, professional academies, Tom Cummings, etc, etc. So the first hour of my day, is just making sure the gym sets are working with those athletes to make sure they’re technically competent, and working at the level they need to to progress in their sport. From eight till four the school day, depending on what week it is, we have week one and week two, and it will be a mix of either academic studies or working with the teachers that do GCSE or a level, you know, trying to work with them and see how we can apply a practical element to what they’re learning in the classroom. So fitness testing is a really good example that I can assist the teachers with their learning or if it’s a game session from year nine students have the option of choosing S&C alongside your traditional sports that you’d see football, rugby, netball, hockey, etc, etc. At year seven and eight, I try and integrate myself with the year group to work with the teachers and the coaches to try and put on some form of athletic development within those sessions. So if I’m working with hockey, for example, I’ll typically run the warmup and a little bit of S&C to lead into the main part of the session. And they might have a skills rotation within that session, per se, for stations that will move around every 1520 minutes. And S&C or athletic development will be one of those stations. The head of hockey that I work with is a very high level coach worked within the eland setup, so knows how they utilise multidisciplinary teams. So we work really well together, he’ll give me a station where we might work on a little bit of flexibility is a course that likes occupies to get their left hand on the floor. So we look at hip mobility, we might do some speed agility work, we might do some meds, running whatever he wants to try and develop those young people for the game of hockey. And then after school, we have more of a health and fitness scenario where anyone that isn’t in a kind of sport club can come along and lift weights or health and fitness reasons.
Rob Anderson
So you mentioned yourself and obviously Sam Gregory, is there any other staff involved in the programme that helped with the delivery.
Kevin Shattock
So we have Katherine, who is going to be a graduate teaching assistant starting with September. And obviously the P teachers of foundations in kind of bodyweight movement, circuit training, those that enjoy the gym help as well, head of Ruby, Richard Beck is an ex pro athlete, he knows a lot of stuff around athletic development work within the Wasp setup. So work together with him, he can assist during those times as well. So starting to build a culture of athletic development, my post was new have been 18 months now. And it’s working towards a more holistic approach and not just skill and sports specific. Hopefully, in September from year seven, we’re going to introduce a movement based curriculum to see how that works. And hopefully, that will then roll out sixth, seventh and eighth. The years after.
Kevin Shattock
Most people don’t watch you sport, you know, you hear these throw realise these cliche sayings of they can’t do this. They can’t throw they can’t run, they’re not fit enough, or they’re not as fit as they used to be. I’m sure we look through rose tinted glasses. When I was at school, and you know, I’m sure the teacher said the same about us. But the fact that, you know, research has shown that we do live more sedentary lives now kids are on the phones more than on computers more, how can we develop that movement from a much earlier age and standpoint, and facilitate that, before they get into sport? get very focused and specialise, in my opinion, far too early. So can we create a curriculum and a content where we’re looking at movement, and we’re still going to use sport as the medium. But the movement skill, and the ability to transfer movement across a range of sports is the key that we’re working towards, which is very exciting. The whole staff team are on board with that as well. So again, it just makes my life a lot easier.
Rob Anderson
So given that the role, I guess, you know, you’re a bit of a pioneer in the school in that it’s, you know, the role was established or created for you. Was it the original agreement to go wider in terms of looking at that more holistic element? Or was it initially we’re going to look after the sports scholars and then you kind of thought, well, I can do more here and I can expand this and have a greater impact on the school how which came first?
Kevin Shattock
Really good question. You know, the chicken and egg scenario my research is is exploring a biopsychosocial approach. So I’m always going to have that lens. But there’s three strands to my role and this was a study Strong day award. Number one, can we build healthier student population? So at lunchtime, we have health and fitness sessions, where kids can come and spin and do circuit training for pure health and fitness reasons can we be a healthy population? That’s strike number one to my role? Number two is the academic side, I work in a school. So how can I use my own skills, expertise and knowledge to improve the PE teachers, and the quality of GCSE and the level PE that we offer? And the third strand is obviously we have, we don’t have scholars as such at the school, we don’t offer any scholarships, kind of fee remission, anything like that. But the size of the school lends itself to some students, our high level athletes, you know, a couple of swimmers, gymnasts, hockey players are a couple of footballers. So how can we give them the resources they need to perform at that level, but also support the governing body that they’re with. So rather than that athlete leaving school two afternoons a week to go to their academy, or though their talent pathway, and do S&C Or do testing, we can do that in house. And we can build relationships, and I can email their coaches and say, right, we tested on this date, these are the test results you want a need or have asked of us. This is the programme they’re doing or give us the programme you want them to do. And we can supervise that. So those are the three strands that we we look at in my position needs and delivers. But when you’re working with young people, you very quickly realise they need so much more. G SAP prides itself on its academic profile. We are regularly in the top 10 of schools across the UK for GCSE and A Level results. So number one is there’s a school pressure there a family pressure, you know, mom and dad and his uncle’s grandma’s grandpa’s are paying for the privilege to go to that school. And there’s an expectation of high level results. Teenagers are trying to build peer relationships. And if those young people are in a pathway, there’s a sporting expectation there as well. So in my opinion, you have to consider those things. It can’t just be about the colour of the gym, and I’m going to make them run faster, or we’re going to make them lift heavier, I need to understand where they are psychologically, on a day to day basis. We’ve also just done a body of work with female athletes to understand the female athlete triad. So energy availability and disordered eating their menstrual cycle, and how that
Kevin Shattock
it needs to be a wider holistic approach to give young people the foundations to go forward. And it is just the foundations. You know, it’s one thing we’ve looked at, as well as the mental side, you know, we get these throwaway lines of the heads not in it, or they weren’t ready for this or the cold handle pressure. You know, all these things we say, as coaches, I’m sure I’ve said them before, but how many coaches actually deliver a programme that cater to those things? You know, we’ve done very simple cards where they look at the three hours before they perform, and the hour after they perform, you know, have they got themselves a little routine, where they’ll do a little bit of self talk a little bit of imagery, there, understand the role that music and audio script might play in that performance, do their other communication methods, where as soon as they get in the car with normal dads, the conversation doesn’t start about their performance that day. You know, all these things that we don’t consider or we say they’re not good enough out yet, but yet we don’t deliver it to them. So for me, it has to be holistic approach to give them that skill set to cope with the demands of sport, not just from a physical point of view.
Rob Anderson
I couldn’t agree more I think Got lost count of the number of times I sat in selection meetings in the national governing body. And you know, we’re making decisions on players who’ve been in our pathway. And we’d say, Oh, he’s terrible at nutrition, or he’s terrible, this and, you know, regular, so how much support we actually offered them on that. And it’s easy to look at training, skipping and go, Okay, well, we’re delivering six or seven hours of technical coaching would live in three to four hours and S&C coaching. But then the only nutrition support we’re getting is a conversation between the gym and the sports pitch, or, you know, a little bit of, or maybe you should have set some goals on this, like, it’s not as formal as you know, the training units we dedicate to technical training or gym work. And I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, because you can’t really criticise someone for something, you have the support women, and especially if it’s, you know, a final decision, and I think that’s, it’s quite a difficult situation to be able to evaluate someone on something that you’ve not provided any support.
Kevin Shattock
It is, but I understand why we do it. For me to justify my job, I have to have very tangible outcomes. I work in a school. So a maths and English or a science teacher can see a look, the student was working in a grid six, a year nine. And when they’ve finished your 11 GCSEs, they were working in grid it I can prove the distance travelled, I can prove I’ve inputted to visual person, I can prove that they have grown and developed. It’s very hard. As an S&C Coach, a sports coach, sports scientists, athletic develop however you want to to it to say, You know what, that young person, their psychology has got better. their eating habits are better, because it’s it’s so contextual. An individual it’s very hard to prove. However, I can prove that they’ve lifted more than a gym, I can prove that I’ve made them run faster, or run for a longer distance. So I understand why those metrics are so valuable. Because if I’m going to justify my role, and let’s be honest, it’s a luxury to have a nutritionist, a psychologist, it’s a luxury for a school to have my role. So how can I prove I’m a value? The easiest way to do that is with figures, odd figures. I tested them in September, we retested in June, we’ve added 20 kilogramme to the back squat, yay, fantastic, I improve I’m doing my job. It’s much harder to say, actually, this young person performed better under pressure in these three really hard fixtures that we that we hired, this young person is now cooking three times a week, and they’re planning out their nutrition, you can’t really see a direct correlation to like their nutrition is better. That plane playing better, you can kind of draw upon and draw your own conclusions, right, they’re written better, that means that they’re getting better recovery, if they’re going to lift more blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if you’re a coach, and you have to make those difficult decisions that someone has to leave your environment, you need something solid, and generally that will come from technical, tactical, physical, but we’re dealing with young people, and then nowhere near the finished product. So should we be drawing upon these intangibles and things we can’t quite put our fingers on to develop that greater range of skills and expertise. So when they come back into your programme, that, you know, they’ve they’ve learned they’ve grown, they’ve developed away from it, or the at least understand what they need to do not just go and lift more weight, go and put 10 kilogrammes on go and grow six inches. These things go away. Look at this. And in a year’s time, you might be where we need you to be within this environment. I
Rob Anderson
think you’ve raised a really important point. I think it’s one that a lot of school bass strings and coaches don’t really consider and it’s around what you mentioned around adding value. I think a lot of people will complain about you know, perhaps the depth of their remit in terms of how many athletes they service in a week or you know how we’d like more resources for more equipment in the gym or a part time member of staff They don’t understand that, in order to justify that you have to be able to demonstrate value. And a lot of times, they either aren’t doing the basics, some of the really basic things like you’ve you’ve measured, they’re even just taking attendance and keeping, hey, well, that attendance in My Sessions has gone from 70% to 80%, there’s an improvement, we can infer that perhaps kids are engaging better. But some of those other things you’ve mentioned, and I think that’s something I try and get across to people is like, you need you need to be, and we’re almost in a bit of a privileged position, because as you said, a lot of schools maybe will create positions, and they’re not fully aware of the reach of your impact. So in some ways, you can create your own KPIs that you should be having something to say I’m demonstrating value. And even if it is something as bland, as we said, there’s some of those physical metrics. But D, do you have any, maybe on maybe less? What’s the word traditional S&C metrics are anything outside of that, from a monitoring or method of assessment to measure some of those, you know, things that are maybe a bit more interesting than just your back squat, when I ran more, your 10 metre speed is there any other bits of things that you’re collecting or reviewing,
Kevin Shattock
we’re just in the process of looking at what data we need. Working with a school GDPR is very high profile, you need to have a very clear rationale of why you’re collecting data and what it’s going to be used for. So if it was a, an academy setting, or a sporting club, it’s a lot easier just to be like, Oh, we’re gonna do this, we’re gonna do that. It doesn’t really matter. If you don’t quite use the data straight away. We’re within a school setting. You know, we are very restricted by what we collect, why we collect it, and everything else. So we’re just in the process of developing those protocols for what we want to look at, in terms of collecting data. So what we’re exploring is number one, we’ve looked at the female athlete triad. And we’re going to start looking at data collection in terms of young female athletes monitoring their menstrual cycle. And this is one of the cool things about working in schools, you can draw upon a wide range of skill sets. So we went to Computer Services, and said, we’d have a notebook that we’ve developed. And you make it into an app gets loaded on the phones, they’ve always got access to it, they might lose the booklet, can you make this into an app? Yeah, let’s have a look. Let’s play it out. What do you want? This is what I’m thinking, Okay, we’ll see if we can make that into an in ear level project. So we now have a year 10 students within school, that’s currently coding, a possible up project for our athletes, which I think is really, really cool. So it’s those such a thing as you can really kind of go deep with and it’s not just right, I am one person, I have 10 hours in a day to deal with these things, and track and monitor. My own personal belief is stacking in monitoring has to be as least intrusive for both you and the athlete as possible. If I’m having to spend 15 minutes, with a clipboard, pen and paper taken down, nor to write things down or asking other people to do that. And then half an hour later, after the session to input these things, you’ll quickly get bored, or you’ll quickly lose a day and everything else. So how can we make it? Less than true? So that’s one of the ways we’re going to look at from there, we’ll start looking at can we offer nutrition sessions. So we are very fortunate school? We have I think three kitchens, where students do from tech. So how can we use the skills within the school and the food tech teachers to implement some form of nutrition plan with our athletes and get them cooking? So different recipes, learning about cars, but everything else? So again, it would be a case of can we monitor how many people have gone through that programme? You want it might be 20. Year two, it might be 30. And can we grow? You know, can we then expand it out to not just the high level athletes? Can we get it to athletes that are on the cusp, and we get it to athletes that are just starting their Bucha or their sport journey so they understand it from day one? You know that I get the 1617 year old All right, I’ve really got to focus on my diet, they’ve got it from day one, they understand they need to fuel performance. So I need to be eating, you know, good, high quality carbs, and need my protein intake fats are really important. You know, because how many kids these days are on some kind of fad diet, where they’ve cut out carbs, or, you know, there’s no fat in their diet, or they’re fasting or they’re having a, you know, two days off, and all these things that the see on social media. So it’s very easy to get people in a test. And of course, we do that, because we have to be objective, and we need to justify what we do. But in terms of how we’re going to monitor people, especially for the demographic, we’re talking about youth athletes, they’re going to grow, they’re going to develop, they’re going to mature, that will automatically have an impact in their performance levels. So what can we do to marks that in an effective way? Where we can draw upon the interventions? And say, actually, that is, what is making the difference? So yeah, we’re just in the process of, of playing around with backing monitoring? Are we going to bring a company in to do that? Are we going to design our own all these types of things, because that’s the world we now live in. And given that I’m based in a school, I can go to the hierarchy, I go to senior leadership and say, Look, Maths, English science, or track the monitor. That’s what you asked for. But look, this is what we do in PE, this is what we do in athletic development, is proving that we’re having an impact on these young people. I need more resources, more money. Have a look at this. Can you consider peace?
Rob Anderson
Absolutely sounds like some fantastic initiatives, I think. I think a lot of coaches in the schools don’t maybe see outside the gym or see outside their little silo and realise that essentially, you’re sitting on really useful connections, or people who will be enthused by us a slightly different spin on things. And even those connections between departments are valuable to demonstrate how are you impacting the curriculum in food tech, by having these opportunities to do these kinds of things. So there’s, there’s definitely lots of bits and pieces there that are really valuable. One of the things that really stood out to me when I heard you talk was, I felt that the analogies that you use gave a much better explanation of concepts I’ve been trying to communicate to people for a while, I thought they’re really valuable. So the first one I wanted to dive into was the analogy or the story used about the sports dinner, because I thought that was really valuable and impactful. So, you know, dive into that for us. Tell us about that little scenario that you created.
Kevin Shattock
There’s two different ways I use this analogy. So we’ll go through the first one that I talked about, at the conference that you saw me at. So imagine if you work in a school or you work in a sports club, you’re going to have a an athlete’s or a player’s dinner, and most people will recognise that setup. Most clubs have an annual dinner where they invite a guest speaker you put your best Dicky bow on and you turn up you have a lovely three course meal a small auctions, you play some daft games to raise some money for your club. Most people listening will understand that. So the way I use the analogy in that way, it is imagined that the setup is the annual club dinner. Instead of a guest speaker, you’ve invited one of your former players, your former athletes, to that club dinner to speak. Or let’s say you’re going to use a 1015 or 20 year benchmark for that, so 2023 Now imagine you’re inviting someone that left your environment environment in 2013 10 years ago. What are they going to talk about? I bet you and I am a betting man I do like a game of blackjack. So I bet you they will talk for five minutes about the wins. The cups believes that there would guarantee spend the rest of that time, the minutes 50 minutes talking about the people they played with the way the coaches made them feel the environment, how they developed, why they wanted to be part of that team and that environment. So the analogy is, what will your players say about you? Or your environment 10 years after they’ve left when they’ve been invited back to a club dinner. That’s one of the ways I use the analogy. The second way I use the analogy is imagine now it’s a dinner party. And the people you’ve invited to the dinner party are people that you like, and or care for. You’ve dressed the table and lovely linen. The glasses are gleaming, the cutlery this polished, and linear. And now for the most important part, the meal itself. So are you a cook? Are you a chef? If you’re a cook, you’re going to get the Gordon Ramsay Heston Blumenthal, Jim Yalova cookbook, off the shelf shelf, you’re going to open a page, and you’re going to go through that word for word instruction for instruction. And you’re going to, with a high degree of probability, produce a good meal? Or are you going to be a chef? And are you going to get the ingredients and conjure up something that is, might not be great, but will be memorable? So are you going to be a kook as a coach? And just go with what your coaching qualifications and what your experience has taught you? And I’m going to instruct people. And we’re going to go through step by step by step, or are you going to be a chef? And say, right, what am I athletes bringing to me the ingredients? And how am I going to mix them together to create something wonderful. So there’s two different ways that I use that. So Bob Dylan, what would your athletes say about your environment? 1015 20 years after? And I guarantee it will be about the people and the way they were made to feel. And are you cook? Are you a chef?
Rob Anderson
I’m fasting. Talk to us about probably one of the longest term building projects in the world, the Sagrada Familia.
Kevin Shattock
This is a philosophical framework. It’s called the Federal thinking. I’m fascinated by this at that moment. And I don’t know whether it’s because the job I currently have or just where I am, and my own personal journey. But hundreds of years ago, people started projects, they knew they would never say the end of and they use the Sagrada Familia, because most people have been at Barcelona, most people have been to see that cathedral. I’ve been to see it three times, I think over a course of or too long. And it’s in different stages of building. It was started, and I’ll probably get my dates wrong here. 1860 odd, are still not finished. And I don’t think it’s time to be finished for another 10 years. So there’s probably four or five generations of people that have started on that project that knew they weren’t going to see the end of it. So for me cathedral thinking is I work with young people currently. When they leave me, they’re not going to be the finished product. And as much as I would like to say that the yard and I get kudos for that. And it gives me an affirmation that yes, I’ve helped this person get to where they are. If they leave me at 16 or 18 years of age, they are nowhere near the finished article. So from a philosophical point of view, I need to recognise that I am not going to see the end of that project. I’m starting a project. I’m laying the foundations. Those foundations have to be strong and they have to allow more and more We’re building work to be placed on top of that. So for me cathedral thinking is having a far reaching long term vision. And not just thinking that the under 14 B team is the be all and end all of that young person’s life. And if we don’t win 10 games, and we don’t win that cup, that’s it. No, I need to see this. As in, I get five years of possible 2030, hopefully 40 year sporting, health and fitness endeavour. So what can I do to lay strong foundations that will allow other people and that young person as they grow and develop and change sports or go in different ways to place more building work more structure on those foundations?
Rob Anderson
Fantastic. I think that’s a really important message. And I think it’s maybe something that isn’t, isn’t maybe communicated enough and coaching courses and coaching certifications to say, actually listen to you, you’re part of a whole building team here, you might be a step one, but that’s not the end of the game. And you know, there’s a lot more to come after you and what sort of state are you leaving it in, for the next person to build on? You know, they’re going to have to come and rework some of the foundations, or they’re going to have to come and, you know, think outside the box to implement what you’ve done. That’s a bit off piste. You know, there’s there’s definitely a very a bigger, bigger question there around, you know, how is this joining part of the bigger picture and the bigger process. So I think it’s a fantastic analogy. One of the big ones stuck with me as well was, was around the fingerprint. So talk to us about our fingerprint.
Kevin Shattock
So fingerprint, this comes from the world of forensic science, and it’s called Low clouds principle named off to the scientists that first established it. And the principle is, between an exchange of two things, there will be something left. So if you think about a scene of a crime, let’s just say I break into a house, go to the back door, check the back door, it’s locked. So I smashed the window. To get it, there might be some fibres left on the shards of glass. Because of the exchange, there might be fingerprints left, as I go through the house, there might be a patent, where, you know, I steal certain items, I only go for high end TVs, or I only go for jewellery. So there might be a pattern and pattern recognition of burglaries in the area. So between those exchanges, something is left. It’s the same with people. It’s the same with coaching. For everyone listening, who won the Olympic 400 metre race in Rio 2016. Not many people would be able to answer that question. And that’s what, seven years ago, probably should be us Tokyo 2021. guarantee every single person listening to this podcast, can name their favourite teacher or someone really important in their life that might have occurred 20 to 25 years ago, I can still name my PE teacher, I can still tell you what they did for me. And I left school 30 years ago. So can you be someone that leaves an imprint on other people? And yes, that might be technical, tactical information. Well, I bet you it’s more to do with how you made them feel. How you encourage them, how we were empowered that we can all recognise people in our lives have that significant impact. So law court principle, between two atmospheres exchange, so that will be left. What can you leave on the young people that you work with? That they will remember when you do it years time?
Rob Anderson
Fantastic. It’s an important question. Sure. So you mentioned already or maybe hinted at some of your your research that you’re doing on Saudi Arabia. So tell us a bit more about that. So you obviously got a huge interest in the bio psychosocial element, what have been some of the research projects or the the questions that you’ve been trying to answer?
Kevin Shattock
It’s funny because I didn’t think I’d go down this route, I was going to be the velocity based training guy. I did my master’s project comparing different methods, and one of those was velocity based training. And I was going to explore that at my doctorate, and I was going to be the velocity based Guru, I was going to be that guy that everyone went to about velocity based training. And then COVID hit. And I found myself having to deal with much, much more. I was working in a team sport environment that time. And it was more about what we need to do to connect people again. Because during the first lockdown that was quite serious, you know, you couldn’t go to a gym, you couldn’t really interact with anyone else. You couldn’t even leave your house for more than an hour at a time. So what will we do and on WhatsApp groups? What will we do and unzoom? You know, so we had zoom fitness sessions, like probably every other person listening to this. But it was more around the psychosocial sides of training that really started to hit me with a sledgehammer. And I started exploring what what is it about a certain level of expertise. I, I would love to be known as a world class coach. And I recognise that a very egotistical thing to say, but I would like to be that rarefied air, that I would be considered world class at what I do. And actually, the analogies are being used, I think, I’d like to think I can get there by having relationships with athletes, and showing that I care for them. So it was more apparent to me that I need to look at my own coaching behaviours, and what I was planning, delivering and reflecting upon, rather than just using one methodology, to really dig into the minutiae of trying to make someone lift one kilogramme more, or make them fight one second have a quicker runner over 1020 3040 metres. So, yeah. Oh, we kicked in. And I need to explore who I was as a coach and what my expertise was. So I started looking around what they call the coaching, planning, reflection, framework of planning delivery. Reflection framework by Bob here. So I started looking at right, number one, do coaches know they do this? I think good coaches. And I know for a fact great coaches already consider this. But to the deliberately do it. My hypothesis is that don’t they just do it naturally through years of experience? So can we get coaches to recognise the need to be doing this? So went down to record your survey, you know, asked lots of questions got us a feedback on what people do in their day to day practice. Then I started looking at what I could do. So we started exploring sessions, and we started
Kevin Shattock
how that would impact motivation, and performance. And then I’m looking at transformational leadership. And the six behaviours there. And again, athletes have feedback to me on how I demonstrated those behaviours, and the impact it had on them. And was that relevant?
Rob Anderson
Fantastic you sound like a guy with loads of spare time on his hands.
Kevin Shattock
Yeah, yeah. Just about to start writing my thesis. So I will be locked in a dungeon Saturday computer for the next nine months. But a tap out the word count
Rob Anderson
Well, that’s been fantastic chatting to Kevin and I think some really, really thoughtful and important messages that people should consider. And you know, ahead of their next coaching session or maybe some reflections or just someone to think about some of the things that you’ve mentioned, whether it’s you know, that impact long term 10 years, Tony has doubled down the down the line, sort of foundation we’re laying for the next person in the coaching process and that that interaction between us and another human being what we what’s being left behind. So I really want to take the time to thank you for your time today. It’s been fantastic. Where can people find you if they want to reach out or follow what you’re doing? Is it ResearchGate as always the best place to check it out?
Rob Anderson
Yes, I have a profile on ResearchGate also on Twitter, at the five W’s pod, I use that quite a lot to do my own research or retweet, retweet research that’s out there so people can connect through those mediums with me. Fantastic.
Rob Anderson
Well, I’ll be sure to stick some links in the show notes for people if they want to check that those things down so they can find you easily but thanks again for for your time today. It’s been really useful. I’ve personally taken away a lot from it and I know people listening will have as well. So thanks for sparing your time your expertise today. No problem. Thank you for the invite. I really enjoyed the discussion.