Dr Liz Durden-Myers is a physical education researcher and teacher educator with over 15 years’ experience within education across the primary, secondary and higher education sectors. She is currently a Senior Lecturer In Physical Education at the University of Gloucestershire & Bath Spa University, Managing Director & Co-Founder at PE Scholar & Scholary and Past Chair of the International Physical Literacy Association (IPLA). Liz is a qualified teacher and holds a PhD in Physical Literacy, a MA in Education, a MSc in Psychology and a BA (Hons) in Physical Education with QTS.
Her research fields include Education, Physical Education, Philosophy, Health, Sport and Wellbeing. She has specific expertise in Physical Literacy, Teaching Pedagogy, Curriculum Design and Teacher Professional Development. Liz is an international speaker, passionate educator and physical activity advocate who champions the value of physical activity for life, for health, wellbeing and human flourishing.
In this episode she discusses:
- The concept of human flourishing and the key principles.
- The relationship between Physical Activity and our Environment.
- What exactly is “Physical Literacy”.
- How do we assess Physical Literacy?
- What is success in Physical Education?
- Are current/future generations of teachers equipped to deliver PE effectively?
- Why PE should stand for “Positive Experiences” not “Public Embarrassment”.
You can listen to the episode in full here.
Get your discounted early bird ticket to LTAD Network Conference here! The 2022 Conference runs from 9-10th July at Hartpury University with a selection of world class speakers! Don’t miss out! Get more details and secure your place here!
To learn more about the LTAD Network check out www.ltadnetwork.com or follow on Instagram: @ltadnetwork or Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ltadnetwork .
You can keep up to date with Athletic Evolution via our www.athleticevolution.co.uk , Instagram: @athleticevouk and Twitter: @athleticevouk .
Rob Anderson
Please welcome to the podcast it’s great to be able to get our schedules to align and then be able to have a chat.
Liz Durden-Myers
Thanks Rob for inviting me I’m really excited to see where our conversation goes over the next 20 minutes 30 minutes or so.
Rob Anderson
So let’s get a bit of a feel for a young list before you start your research into physical literacy and pumping out journal articles what was physical activity looking like for you? Was it a team sport route was individual was a recreation and what was your kind of journey?
Liz Durden-Myers
I think even before we got into the sport elements, I’m I’m a middle child sign that the child that wants to catch up to the oldest sibling and so I had an older brother and so often wanted to do things before I was maybe developmentally ready but eager to learn wanting to do what he was doing. And I kind of fell into sport really, because my mum and dad were quite active. And they were active when they were young. And they saw the power, I guess in sport and physical activity. And I think I was quite a not think they told me regularly that I was quite a challenging child and on the go. And I think they wanted something to be able to channel that energy. So they got me involved in lots of different sports from a very early age. So you saw the importance of swimming, swimming, for example, tennis clubs, lots of different activities, really, I think it was mainly to tire me out and to give me something productive to focus my energy on. So as a result, it’s kind of a bit of a generic kind of upbringing, sport, physical activity. I was a multi sport athlete, I guess I was somewhere initially. And interestingly, this story repeated itself. So I got quite good at swimming, and then it got quite competitive and the swimming sets became K 30 length warm up, off you go and I kind of fell out of love with it. And it became a little bit too competitive. So I change sports. And then I started netball, same sort of thing got a little bit competitive, took the fun out of it to try hockey, and then winter basketball, then rugby and all these different sports but I probably my my best sport or the probably the most prominent thing in my life was my dad used to disappear on a Sunday to go and play golf. And one day, I said Well can I come and so I played golf from a very young age and got to quite a high standard. But similarly, again, when that got to competitive, I didn’t really like it because sport was very much a energy release. Not just that, but the kind of I did it for the enjoyment and to get in the golf example was to have a conversation with somebody over four hours. And when it got really competitive, and my competitors head would go down, and I couldn’t speak with them for the for the four hour round because they were too upset with their performance or into competition. I just thought this is not what it’s about. So I really liked the camaraderie of sport and I love being in team games and you know, are chasing an egg or ball around a pitch until the cows come home. But I’m, I’m not as quite disciplined in when I’m on my own or going for a run by myself that really does quite a different type of motivation for me. But yeah, so kind of a multi sport athlete played sport in secondary school, met all of the teams. And then I joined the Navy played a little bit sport, but then I realised because I joined the Navy because I have two passions. I had like an enquiring mind, like how does things work? And how can we fix them and problem solver, and sport and physical activity, and I thought I could do both in the Navy. And then I quickly realised that when I got into the job that maybe the sport and physical activity was the actual pathway that I wanted to follow. So came out and retrained to be PE teacher. And then I still play play now. So I’m still I still play regular netball but I have two young boys. And I’m obviously trying to encourage them to get off to the best possible start as well. But yeah, now my major role is trying to encourage teachers to teach the next generation to find their love of sport and physical activity, and make sure that everyone leaving education has found their thing or at least one or two things that they can take into their adult life with.
Rob Anderson
So what was it that pushed you down the research route rather than perhaps the the coaching route as some might expect when you’re kind of in often the route is people finish up sport and career and go down the coaching career? What was it that kind of turned you down the research side of things? So I
Liz Durden-Myers
think it’s back to that inquiring mind in that I was teaching and I just had a thirst for more knowledge in the pursuit of me becoming a better educator and me being more effective. So I studied a couple of masters while I was teaching. And I did a couple of projects where I was like action research projects, looking at specific cohorts or activities, really trying to hone in and tailor my teaching to produce better outputs or better experiences. And I think I kind of got hooked on that breaking new ground or implementing theory to practice and that’s what I like most because I think we often educators will talk about academics or talk about the research practice gap. And so I early on wanted to try and position myself right in that centre, and try and listen to practice and listen to academia. And really be that conduit for theory and practice and find out what works in practice and find the problems in practice that we can find the solutions for in research. So that was my kind of motivation. And predominantly because I moved into research because I started doing a PhD with Margaret Whitehead, the founder of physical literacy, and I couldn’t really I couldn’t do both things well, so I took the plunge and said, I’ll go and work in he lived Liverpool John Moores University at the time, and really dedicate some more time to the PhD and getting it right. So that was the big jump out. But I think my major focus is just trying to find some of the the answers to some of the problems that we’re facing today, and just start inquiring mind and trying to help practitioners, really, teachers, coaches, anyone that has a role in children’s lives or in sport and physical activity? How can we help them and help the next generation, find their love, and get them off to the best possible start?
Rob Anderson
So let’s dig into some of the bits that you’ve you’ve been active in producing research. And so talk to us about human flourishing, what’s the concept of human flourishing? And what role does physical literacy have in human flourishing?
Liz Durden-Myers
So human flourishing is definitely a topic that has been debated since I think humans first arrived on the planet, you know, we could probably trace back thoughts and, and perspectives on human flourishing for centuries. But the way in which I’m using him for human flourishing is that notion of what it is to be a flourishing human and generally, in general, as a as a human, but also in today’s society, because we’re not removed from from our environment, and what what challenges are our environment posing to us as individuals and humans today? So what is it to be a flourishing human and a flourishing human in today’s society, and it can be incredibly subjective as well. So what what in one individual will flourish in one set of conditions might be completely different to somebody else. But essentially, it’s this idea that it is a condition or a disposition where humans are thriving or living optimally. So kind of making the best of it and also enjoying that process. So there’s loads of research that you can draw upon that with different takes on what human flourishing is, but my major influences are Deruta and Rasmussen, who kind of argue that in order to flourish, we have to seek out these goods and virtues. So for example, Rasmuson describes the seven characteristics or striving towards the seven characteristics. So, in anything that we do, it should be trying to be objectively good, so we can’t just seek out our own enjoyment at the detriment of others. So it has to be objectively good. So not that kind of hedonistic happiness for you. It’s very much objective, objectively morally good. So what we’re trying to do is morally good, and it’s not disadvantaging anyone else or it’s a good endeavour. The next thing he says is that human flourishing is inclusive so everybody can can flourish, no matter your physical endowment, or the conditions in which you were raised or that or poverty or whatever it might be. Every human has the potential to flourish. The next day, he argues that it’s completely individualised. So what, like I mentioned before around each individual is unique, and what conditions might encourage me to flourish might be completely different for somebody else. He also argues that this agent dependent and that means that there has to be a relationship between the conditions and the individual. So it’s like when you go, it’s like, the classic competitive competition argument, isn’t it? For some individuals, there’s a positive relationship between competition and activity. But for me, for example, that’s an example there was a point where that competition and me didn’t really fit. So it’s understanding the relationship. So what works for the individual but also in the conditions that and then there’s two more it says, the other one is self directed. So the path has to be walked by the individual you can provide the conditions from which somebody can make flourish, but they have to actively seek that out and walk is the kind of the analogy lead a horse to water, we can’t make them drink, they have to step toward that path themselves. And then finally, like a socially constructed, so it’s very heavily influenced by society and that’s very relevant in today’s society, where we consider certain type of living or a certain standard of living as flourishing, but we may not actually understand the ramifications of attaining a life at that level, for example. But yeah, essentially, the way I look at human flourishing is around this idea that how can we live optimally as humans or flourish as humans, and I don’t think that we can do that without a relationship with physical activity. So I then kind of make the case that physical activity is essential in creating embodied experiences. And I think in today’s society, embodiment, and our connection with mind, body, and environment is not necessarily as strong as we would like it to be. And so therefore, physical literacy can be a way in which we create more embodied physical experiences in the world, and help us therefore navigate our world, by understanding ourself, our environment, and bring those two worlds closer together.
Rob Anderson
That’s really interesting. So I mean, I don’t think, you know, we probably maybe five or 10 years ago, people might have have debated that, but I, you know, with with COVID, and lock downs and restrictions to a lot of activities and social interactions, I think now more than ever, people probably have a better understanding of that relationship between our environment, social interaction and physical activity. So when we talk about physical literacy, it’s always worthwhile kind of establishing a common terminology, because people can obviously use lots of different things and run away down a rabbit hole. So when we talk about physical literacy, and in the research, from your perspective, what what’s a good explanation of physical literacy?
Liz Durden-Myers
Yeah, so I have, that’s a really great question. And depending on where you are in the world, or your philosophical stance, you might come at this from different point of view, but I’m, I take a white heavy approach in terms of I, I am heavily influenced by Margaret whiteheads work. And so therefore, I would recognise the ipla definition. So the international physical literacies definition of physical literacy, which is physical literacy can be described as the motivation, confidence, physical competence, knowledge and understanding to value and take responsibility for engagement in physical activities for life. So, we often get questioned on that definition quite a lot. And that they say, it’s, it’s quite a long definition. But it’s really important because it provides the means to the end. So within that definition, it has these key elements of motivation, competence, competence, and knowledge and understanding. And what he’s trying to do there is say that without one of those elements, there is likely to be a barrier to participation, or we’re not likely to create engagement and physical activity for life. And underneath that definition, underneath that explanation sits that idea of Manas in that mind, body connectedness and developing the whole person. So we can’t just develop their physicality, we have to develop their, their cognition and their affective domain. So their motivation, confidence, and competence and knowledge and understanding in order to have the whole package. But so I kind of like to talk about physical literacy as an iceberg. So the top of the iceberg is the definition. The next layer down is the domain. So trying to look at physical affective and cognitive development. And then the next layer down again, is the kind of philosophical principles that physical literacy is founded on and influenced by. And I’ve already spoke about one in terms of monism, that mind body connectedness and promoting embodied experiences in the world. And then there’s also these two other elements around positive and meaningful experiences. So making sure that we were all a product of our experiences. And P is often or physical activity experiences can often be Marmite experiences, they either love or hate it. And it’s human nature to seek out the things that we’ve enjoyed or had success at. And to avoid the things that make us feel uncomfortable or, or exposed. So we need to make sure that those physical activity experiences are meaningful and positive to those individuals and where there are negative experiences because there will be, but it’s addressed and tackled and unpicked and reshaped and reformed. It’s not just less Left to Fester, or to grow to deep seated fear of activity or body confidence issues, whatever it might be. So that’s the second philosophical principle, positive meaningful experiences or existentialism, we would call that in the philosophy world. And then the next one is phenomenology. And that’s identifying that every individual is unique as a result of those unique experiences. And therefore everybody views the world differently. So in terms of, kind of, if I go into coaches speak or teacher speak, what that means is is really understanding your pupils and or coach or athletes, or participants, really understanding what motivates them what their developmental needs are, what things do they respond well to gaining their feedback. Why are they here? Where do they want to go? How could we shape their experiences along the way and And ultimately, how can we ensure that when they leave us or move on to another sport or go off into another activity, or end education, physical activity is essentially part of who they are and their identity. And in order to do that you need to know who they are in the first place.
Rob Anderson
It’s quite a challenge, isn’t it? Because my next question is going to be how do we assess physical literacy? But when we look at the components there, like you said, around motivation, confidence knowledge, understanding the physical competence is very different kind of components, isn’t it? You can have a knowledge without having you know, the confidence you can have the confidence with the area of competence. So it’s, it’s quite a tricky kind of challenge to be able to get an overarching assessment of physical literacy.
Liz Durden-Myers
Yeah, that’s a really an assessment of Physical literacy is probably the the Vanguard discussion at the moment in the physical literacy world. And I think it goes back to that all depends on what philosophical angle you’re coming out of this app. So if you’re kind of an ideal ideologist or someone that is coming at it, from a very philosophical point of view, can you measure the lived experience, I don’t think you really can, you can probably, you’re then putting your lived experience perception onto somebody else’s lived experience. And then there’s also that conversation around, we’re only valuing what’s reached conscious level or what is reached conscious level in our interpretation of that performance. So you could argue in one breath, if you’re on that side of the pendulum, you can’t really assess it. And then on the other end, in the, in kind of the pragmatic world, in order for physical literacy to thrive on the ground, we need to have some measurables, in order to understand how this is shaping and forming our practice. So lots of work has been done in that pragmatic, and in terms of how we can promote an understanding of physical literacy. And we like to call that around, like charting progress. But for example, there are there are tools out there. But we would say that, in order to create physical literacy assessment, it would have to be holistic. So you’re trying to gauge a holistic picture of motivation, competence, competence. And we do do that currently with the active life survey. And that’s self reported. So what that means is, is that they, we send out a survey, they self report, to what extent do they feel motivated, confident, competent, and having the knowledge and understanding and then we ask them how much physical activity today partake in. And from those statistics, which are quite robust, it does show that there is a relationship with those four elements and physical activity engagement. So we can do it as a rudimentary as that. But you can also when you break down each of those components, we have got tools in those areas, like tested gross motor development, for example. But we just need to be really careful about how we use assessment because it drives pedagogy or practice, doesn’t it? So, if you implement a TDM, D, all of a sudden, your training programme orientates, around the GMD. But is that what we’re trying to orientate against? Are we trying to orientate our training towards a test? Or actually how do we retain the rich and meaningful experience and the the pupil at the centre of the participant at the centre, not the test at the centre? Because that’s what our life is, at moment, you know, whether we’re, whether it’s a GCSE result, or whether it’s, we’re working towards these peak performance indicators, or whatever it might be? And then is the individual at the heart of that again? Or is it the test that’s at the heart of that experience, so it’s really, really difficult to get right, but definitely, putting the individual at the centre of their assessment is really important, and getting them to make the reflections on their journey. Because we also know you know, in terms of in the sporting world, that power dynamic as well, so and if we think physical issues, mainly around mass participation with a performance pathway in there, ultimately, we want them to be self autonomous in their own understanding their own journey to where they need to go next, what targets do they need to set? And how do they go about overcoming those challenges, to kind of putting the power imbalance back in check by putting it in the hands of the athlete or the people?
Rob Anderson
It’s a really interesting one, because it’s one of the debates that you are not maybe not debated on word, but it’s one of the topics that kind of always gets thrown up is like, what is it? What is the purpose of sport at a youth level? You know, is it to create this funnel where we occasionally spit out a superstar, and then 99% of people fall by the wayside? Or is it to help kids fall in love with sport, whatever that may be, you know, whether that’s our particular version of what we like to play or something completely different. And it is something that I think if you’re not aware, people can kind of fall into the trap of making their own kind of goal of Well, I’m obviously trying to create the next fish, Sharon elderness. You know, no matter how many kids I kind of go through to find that one diamond, it was kind of worth it, whereas actually having a bit more of a widespread kind of thought around that holistic development. Okay, not every kid’s gonna be Cristiano Ronaldo, but can we give them competence? Can we give them an understanding? Can we help them to find joy in in physical movement, and you know whether they’re going to play For the local football team and they’re playing walk walking football into their 50s That’s still success versus someone who goes on to, to play at a world championship level. You know, it’s, there’s a lot more, I think sometimes you can have very arbitrary definitions of success. Did you win the championship? Or did you lose versus, you know, fast forward? 10 years? How many kids still love the sport that you a coaching?
Liz Durden-Myers
Yeah. 100% I think that that’s that’s it reframing success. What does success look like? And it looks differently in different settings? So I think that one of our biggest barriers is that it’s exactly that. Let’s just define what is physical education? And what is success in physical education? Everybody finding a lifelong love of movement and physical activity. Great. What is school sport? What is success in school sport? Is it participation with where people come in their droves? Like I was guilty of this, like, in year seven, I’d have four netball courts of netballers. And by the time I got to hear another, and I had one really good team, is that success? Or is it four quarts of four netballers that are continuing to come, you know, four quarts of netballers that have come all the way through, and I haven’t there hasn’t been that narrowing. In fact, if anything, we want to widening participation. But similarly, sport and competitive sport, and elite sport has to sit nicely in that package as well, because there’s not either or it’s definitely there is complimentary pathways. But I think we just need to be better at defining what that looks like. So this is participation pathway. And then this is the performance pathway. And if you if you if you do get knocked out of that performance pathway, there is a participation pathway safety net ready to catch you. And also, this is a problem with them. Some of the NG B’s and sport is that often they’re measured on their statistics. And it’s a loss. If we lose a participant from rugby to football, it’s classed as a loss. But I think if they’ve taught it sports, you should be able to still be able to, you know, not be negatively affected by that. So you’re weak, because so that’s the problem, we get quite siloed into our sports, rather than thinking multi sport, and in supporting transitions from from different sporting pathways. And I know that’s easier said than done. The reality is, it is very challenging. But ultimately, they’re not This is us a lot of the time imposing an adult world, into your child’s life into a child’s environment and child’s world. So they often don’t care about the things that we care about. And nor should they, and what do we what do we want is for them to walk away from that session or that training block or the whole year or the season and wanting to come back and continuing to come back? Yeah, so I’m completely with you there. And I think if we can redefine what success looks like, and put the metrics around that, that will dramatically guide what we do in our sessions.
Rob Anderson
Yeah, I think there’s a bit of a, it’s a situation as well, if you dig into a lot of those kind of Ltd models, you know, it’s, you kind of go through this linear thing. And we’ve never really mentioned the people who’ve fallen by the wayside. It’s like, oh, well, you know, they’ll go from this stage to this stage, and, you know, kind of in the grey area, oh, by the way, we probably lost 50 athletes at that point and then lost 50 Another and, you know, we kind of have this, this maybe funnel mentality to you know, we split up the golden egg at the end. But actually, there’s a lot, you don’t need to necessarily dig into that too much to realise that it’s not always the case. I mean, look, you can’t do you know, Bob’s skeleton in the UK on a recreational basis. We don’t have a programme for that. But we have an elite programme. So clearly that that framework has that sports, it’s outside of that, you know, there’s a whole load of things that we may have this No, I guess, widely accepted premise that we have to have this sort of a structure to get these high performance. And actually, it’s, you know, you can look abroad and look at Iceland’s football programme, and, you know, countries that have outperformed, who have an alternative way of doing things and think well, actually, maybe we were just doing things the way we’ve always done them because we’ve always done them that way. And we’re not necessarily thinking is this the best way of doing it?
Liz Durden-Myers
Yeah, I mean, somebody’s got to apply there’s written a fantastic book that says the genius of a natural childhood and is maybe not even sport, you know, maybe actually there’s there’s I would probably argue there’s more sporting opportunities today than there probably was in our day and certainly, but our gender other generation before us, so actually is it you know, suffocation through choice and I’ve got a good friend in Jersey, John Scriven, who will talk around, you know, in sport, we often move in these linear planes. And actually what we get from Play and in the natural environment is the multi plane or directional functional movement, the climbing and he’ll say that we’re losing shoulder health because we don’t hang any longer. So actually, is it for my sport and that because the nature is that we don’t do tend to only specialise and then start to create many athletes, when actually is the is it more of a physical activity framework that we need to be looking for and more of a if we think about connection and embodied experiences, connection in different movement forms that call for different relationships with movement. So that’s But we would say in physical literacy, we’ve got like these six movement forms, aquatic activities, adventure activities, athletic activities, and competitive health, fitness and wellness activities, and then relational activities. So each types of those movement forms call forth a different relationship with physical activity. And I certainly think that that’s probably why some of the successes around Forest School is that reconnection with the natural environment. And we also know, you know, the huge benefits of physical activity in blue and green spaces. So there’s definitely loads that we can be getting better. But yeah, I often think, you know, maybe sport isn’t the answer, maybe we do need to go down this physical activity approach. And I keep those functional movements in there. And like, we would say, like General General movement patterns, and then refined movement patterns, and then only then do you on some sport specific movement patterns, are we missing out those two really important steps by just jumping straight into sport.
Rob Anderson
And I think that provides a good challenge to the coaches, isn’t it because it’s very easy to coach in a very linear fashion in a very structured programme. Like, I know, Ben pulling in Bristol is doing some great work, and watch some of his stuff on Instagram. And he talks a lot more about exposure to movement patterns. So I’m not gonna count sets and reps, we’re gonna do some exposure. And he sets up some really interesting activities and constraints to create a particular pattern, but not in the typical way, we would say, with sets and reps, and we’re going to do three sixes on back squat, he creates some sort of a game that, you know, it results in that movement pattern, but it’s no more natural animal playlet. But I guess maybe this, you know, for some people, this may be well outside their comfort zone, but for others thinking, okay, yeah, actually, you know, we talk a lot about the constraints based kind of model and actually, you know, a bit of autonomy to the participant or the the athlete, is it maybe having a bit of comfort in your identity as a coach to step back a bit and work in collaboration with an athlete rather than saying, Oh, this is the programme, this is what I’ve written down. This is what we’re doing, which might be successful in inverted commas in that session, because he got through it all. But actually, that participants slowly disengaging and over the course of the season is going to drop out because they don’t enjoy it anymore. You know, short term long term success, coming back to reframing, isn’t it? Yeah.
Liz Durden-Myers
And almost, you know, as a good coach or educator, you want to write yourself out of the job, don’t you? And that’s I don’t think we do enough of thinking in that way around, how can I promote autonomy and design myself out, and I completely agree with them, there’s that a new wave of exciting pedagogy coming through ecological dynamics and constraints based learning. And I completely agree, and that is about I, in my education role, I would say it’s, it’s definitely about choosing the right pedagogical tool for the right pedagogical job. There are times when you’ll need direct instruction and explicit demonstration, and practice time and block practice of random practice and so on more traditional framing elements, but there’s also real elements and opportunities for constraints based approaches, just as you said, especially in those early days where we create a really exciting, engaging, well thought through activity. That is that tackles multiple movement patterns in one go. Rather than I’ve seen this, where I’ve seen like a balance lesson, and it emits more than includes and it doesn’t even do a good job of teaching the movement. It’s trying to teach and disengagement happen. So we would definitely talk around, how can you balance that knowledge and understanding the physical development and the cognitive understanding in in a really excited engaging way? And that’s, that is the fine art of teaching and coaching is how can you bring learning to life through a really interesting hook, and getting them interested and also facilitating success? I often think that we pose challenges too difficult, that are too difficult, but that that clear progression of and that’s why game sets are so good, you know, imposing conditions, and seeing how that changes. And so we’re really what we’re actually doing there is unpacking that perception action function. So you perceived x and you did, why was that a good thing to do? Was there a problem on the execution? Or was there a problem on the perception? And so we’re trying to think more creatively around the problems and do it more embedded rather than explicit, I guess, we will have those those individuals we can think about it who are fantastic in the drills, but can’t apply it in the game. And vice versa. It’s about balance, I would say and choosing the right tool for the right job.
Rob Anderson
Here. There’s a lot there I want to unpack it reminded me a couple of where I saw this was on Instagram or Facebook silence there was a grassroots football coach, and someone asked him what do you do handstands in your warmup? And it was like an under 13 skills for putting this question. He said, Well, they kept doing it just at random, so I thought I might as well stick it in the warmup because they want to do it anyway. So you know, rather than telling them off or doing that he’s like, right, we’re gonna do handstands for a minute and kind of got that out of the system, and then we can move on to the next thing, but it was that give and take, you know, rather than scolding you for doing it, it’s like, Okay, why don’t we all ever have a crack at that, and I’ve had that exact experience. We’ve all had that boy who wants to hang upside down from the pull up bars, you know, so suddenly we turn into an obstacle course, right? Can you get from that pull up bar to the one on the end? And instead of it being, uh, you know, I’m getting disciplined for doing something wrong. Now I’ve created a game, we’ll all give it a try. And okay, how do we get on? Okay, what do you think might help with that? Let’s go and train that thing. So it comes back to that, I think, isn’t it and that’s what you get from probably more experienced coaches who are comfortable to maybe release the reins a little bit, whereas maybe someone who’s maybe not experienced that grey area, and I’m comfortable in not having 100% complete control might be like, nope, stop that, we’ve got to get back to the plan. Because you know, the plan is important, the script that we had is really important, but actually, sometimes it’s in that grey area of going, we’re gonna go off piste a little bit and play around with this, and it might work or it might not work, but we’re gonna have fun with it. Yeah,
Liz Durden-Myers
I’ve had exactly the same moment, I was teaching a cricket lesson. And a girl sat down on the grass and started playing with a blade of grass and the physical educator and he was, you know, the instant reaction is to try and reprimand the child to get them to stand up and engage in the activity or, you know, to encourage them to get back into the activity and go into, you know, on the discipline front, but I, I don’t see like that any longer. It’s like, well, no, actually, this probably the first, this is the first lesson we’ve done outside on the grass. She’s, they’re not allowed to go on the grass at lunch times. She’s just engaging with this environment. And it may not be in the specific tasks that I’m asking her to do right now. But this is just as an invaluable experience for her. She did what she had to do with the grass made the daisy chain stood up fully engaged, it was just, you know, literally not even a minute, and I could have destroyed that experience for her. If I hadn’t I’ve had that moment to reflect and think Is it is it actually a big deal. And it’s not. And I actually think in education, we’re lucky in the sense that we don’t get observed unless we’re being observed. So we are the masters of our own classroom. But I often think this is where it’s more difficult in coaching, because you’ve got all the parents potentially expecting a certain type of act of experience. And often it’s educating the parents that they might be coming to a rugby talk session, but it won’t just be rugby, it will be multi sports, it’d be throwing, catching different types of balls, and so on. So there’s an education piece there. But also, I think everyone’s everyone’s I’m even guilty of it to a certain extent, you’ve paid for swimming lessons, it’s 30 minutes 30 paddle, you know, the full 15 pounder session, and you’re sat there thinking, you must sit and engage and listen, but actually are my son’s like this. And it’s taken me quite a lot of willpower to step back and think actually, yes, he is under the water for most of the instructions. But he’s excited. He’s in the swimming pool. He’s, he’s exploring, that’s where he is. He would like to be ideally, yes, he’d be on top of the water listening to the next instruction. But you know, I want something to be a fun experience from him. I don’t want him to think in 10 years time. Do you remember what your swimming lessons were like? Well, yeah, mum used to sit and scowl at me on the side of the pool. And my swimming teacher was shouting at me. And yeah, I didn’t want to go swimming anymore. So I think we often need to get, just take a step back and realise that there’s so little on day, especially at that really young age, and we just want them to be exploring their environment and building and laying down those positive and meaningful experiences for them. Now, what’s meaningful to them? And what’s meaningful to us? That’s maybe where the tension point is, but you know, whose physical literally journey is it? You know?
Rob Anderson
It kind of is just sparked an idea for me, there’s like, does it really just come down to ego, it doesn’t come down to I’m the coach, you gotta listen to me. And I’ve, you know, I’ve got the plan on the front of knowledge, you know, you need to listen to my, my directions and my instructions, because they’re important, because I’m the one who’s going to get you better. Whereas actually, you know, if you think about a longer term, certainly the athletes that I’ve worked with have gone on to, you know, either play recreationally for life, or have have gone to professionals, who are the ones who is their journey, like they are the ones who, you know, there’s a lot of what you came back to originally around autonomy and self direction. You know, they’re the ones who will pitch up, because they had to find a bus on the way there, you know, versus the ones who there’s a little bit of friction, I’ll just stay home because they’re really fancy it. It’s it comes back to kind of what you’re saying of, you know, Is it as simple as success metric at grassroots sport or youth level, just that they keep coming back? Because they want is that is that the simplest success metric we have? Because you’re clearly never going to go into an elite level if you don’t come back, but also you’re probably not going to play a recreational level. If you don’t want to come back. Is that just the simplest success metric we have?
Liz Durden-Myers
Yeah, I think it’s one of those things, isn’t it as well. If you think back to anything you’ve achieved in your life, or what you’re proud of, you often say I did that. Not my coach did that for me or my, my lecture helped me do that. I did that. And so I think that we’ve got a really interesting role to play. I think after all the meaningful things in my life it was I had a support net work I felt supported. I felt trained to, to get to a point. But I ultimately took the step off the threshold and pursued it. And it’s almost like a train isn’t it was my train on the track and people fueling me to get to a destination? And they pointed me in the right direction, and they pulled me back. And they, you know, put in different fuel and mix things up a bit. But ultimately, it was, it was me on my track. So I think that yeah, you’re right in that, is it about trying to get out? Is it about us? Or is it about them? And I think I certainly have the fact that it’s about them. And I think that’s a really interesting point. But yeah, goes back to that self dependent, self directed and Agent dependent kind of notion that they have to be some sort of Master of their own destiny.
Rob Anderson
I guess that then begs the question, what is the role of the coach or the PE teacher or, you know, anyone who’s helping to facilitate that journey? What is their role? Because we tend to, you know, I guess, self appointed roles, my, you know, no one maybe says this to another 14 football team, but obviously, I’m the coach. So my job is to win games, you know, whereas actually do we need to maybe reconsider what our role is.
Liz Durden-Myers
I think there’s some great research in this area that that we are many things at different points to different people we can be the friend we can be the the motivator, we can be the coach we can be the you know, pseudo parent, we can, you know, we can be all sorts of different types of role we can be the disciplinarian, we can be all sorts. And I think that’s the art of a teacher and a coach is being what people will participant needs at that moment. And we all we all know, that don’t realise I when I think about the most influential coaches I’ve been is that they have been able to motivate, but they’ve also been know how to support and they know when to give me the stick, and they know when to give me the carrot. And they know when to say pull your socks up. If this is on you, or it’s like they appreciate that they need to put in some more effort. But you know, when more support was scaffold. So I definitely think that the responsive coach or educator is definitely what some of the best do really well. In improv in, I guess, in youth, I think it really it’s different. If we, if we spoke to Alex Ferguson, he might say something different. But again, that’s a different kettle of fish. We’re talking mass participation, and youth. You know, that’s what children need at that point, especially, you know, we don’t we are a significant role model in their lives, and we can be effective. If the role model for for beings, if you ask anybody, I’m going the other way around. If you ask anyone why they’re active, often it’s because of an influence of a role model. And often they’ll say, a PE teacher or a coach or their parents, and I think we often take that for granted how significant we are. So we need to really make sure that we are being as positive role models because exactly that we can continue to create a continuing of lifelong engagement. But we can easily cease that journey at any moment through our own actions.
Rob Anderson
Yeah, that’s, that’s really true. I would say pretty much most of the guests that I’ve spoken to like when we do a little bit of anti backstory, there’s usually one figure that stands out, like you said, with the day golfing, you know, even had someone who was the opposition team captain who have a big conversation about leadership that usually people can kind of pinpoint one or two or three individuals. So I guess if we invert that, so those are the people who stayed in sport, because they’ve had a positive experience. You know, are we just not hearing the stories of 1000s of people to have the opposite. We’re actually I had this PE teacher and he really spoke to me nastily, and that was it. I didn’t like PE anymore, or I had a football coach. And that, you know, I never played a minute because I was the sub and we always wanted to win, you know, so we it’s a bit of a survivorship bias, isn’t it? We see all these positive role models. But is the flip side also true. We see. Now if we were to talk to the average person who doesn’t do physical activity? Is there a story that hasn’t? hasn’t been heard around a negative influence?
Liz Durden-Myers
Yeah, definitely. I think there is that moment because you asked anyone’s about paying, they either loved it or hated it. You know, my use. I’ve got this mantra at the moment of saying that physical education should stand for positive experiences, not public embarrassment. But often, that is the polarising option. And often for us, as educators and coaches, we’re repeating a system that worked for us, but we’re looking at maybe 10% of sport enthusiasts that go on to play sport and physical sport, whereas the other 90% normally move into more physical activity kind of genres. So actually, is it us that are getting it wrong? And to the detriment to the of the 95? Yeah, I definitely think that there’s that but I also think there’s even a worse there the polarised but I think there’s probably the mass in the middle that are just quite indifferent. So that’s a shame as well, that we haven’t last had a lasting impression on a whole swathe of a generation around even just you know, being positively motivated to be physically active. So we’ve on that, and the latest active life survey, actually the the strength of conviction around why sporting activities important was if it was incredibly low like it well, it had been lowered. So whereas before we did have those that were sport enthusiasts enjoying it, and we’re really strong in terms of this is really important. The strength of our convictions are not necessarily as strong as they were.
Rob Anderson
That’s interesting. I wonder if that’s a reflection of the events last few years? Or if that’s just a reflection of the way society as a whole is going? It’s an interesting kind of question to kind of think about, what do you think needs to be done to better equip teachers and coaches or educators to help promote physical interesting, is it an education piece on their part isn’t a support piece? What do you think is some of the missing bits behind? I
Liz Durden-Myers
think it’s really difficult. I mean, it’s a really complex picture, I think that we are inheriting. So if I start where I am, at the moment, in terms of initial teacher education, so I’ve got an incredible job and that they, aspiring teachers come and work with me for a year and my training and my schools to try and become qualified, and then their cue ETFs. And I’ve noticed this, that we’re not getting the multi sport athletes or participants any longer, we’re not we’re getting maybe that only specialisation is there. And they only do one sport. And so therefore, when they get to me, there might be strong in their area, which might be football, and if you’re if it’s football, or if it’s not, for you’re probably okay in the team sports, but you need that you don’t have that cross sectoral command of the landscape in your gym, your dance, your athletics, your array. Whereas I think I was quite lucky in that the generation of teachers that I went through, we were all quite multi sport athletes or participants, we could pick pick up most things, whereas now it is very linear. And they might have one or two, and therefore the subject knowledge gap is absolutely huge. And I can see why that’s quite intimidating. I often say it’s the same as like saying to us going teach music, and there’s all the range of instruments like, where do you start? That is a lot to try and master. So I definitely think we’re getting it wrong in education, because we’re inheriting teachers. And so this is the system, it worked for the system that, you know, that survivor bias that you’re saying, this is the people that have got through the system to me, and they’re still not necessarily very, that their breadth and depth of experience isn’t necessarily great. So I definitely think we’ve got a little bit of a problem with the system and in terms of education, and the experiences we’re providing people. So now, if you fast forward, my job then is to equip these teachers with as much breadth and depth and reframing as possible, to give them the tools to be able to change that system. So definitely, we talk about curriculum design, and really thinking about it from a physical activity point of view, rather than just a sport model, understanding the difference between curriculum time and extra curriculum time. And what is sport, sport, school sport, and what is physical education? And are they different? And should we be looking for different things? So we’re definitely looking at that. But ultimately, as well as all the cultures within schools, there’s a lot of schools that that’s what they expect, they expect us to be running those traditional sports netball and hockey in the autumn term and rugby and football and in the autumn term. And if we said you know, something different light, we’re gonna run yoga or mindfulness, they might look at us a little bit interestingly, around what are how does this fit. So we’ve got to definitely try and reframe but like, I mean, David, Kurt put it perfectly in his 2010 book around physical education is in danger of extinction, unless we have radical reform, where he said there was three possibilities, more of the same radical reform or extinction. So obviously, we don’t want extinction to happen, even though we’ve got elements of that with it being taken off the timetable. And I’m seeing it now with indoor spaces being taken up with exams, or even just not done because of golden time or going on a school trip or whatever it might be. So you certainly don’t want extinction more of the same is probably what’s happening now we’re just recreating the system that worked for us as a sport enthusiasts that have got through the system and you know, the the old guard that are in there that still think that system works, but I do believe there is a sway than in physical literacy and and a real groundswell moment that we are, we are ready to look at things differently. I think that the profession is there, we know education needs to be a bit of a shake up in relation to PE because the well being of our pupils tell us that the physical activity levels of our pupils tell that and our population so we I think we’re at that classic now Einstein moment more of the same will get the same results. So unless we do something radical, we’re we’re that that will miss that crisis moment around that we need to do something different. Otherwise, we are just going to continue on that decline. So yeah, it’s um, but having said that, and that’s quite a bit of doom and gloom that bit I actually am the most massive advocate for teachers because no teacher wakes up think I’m gonna do an awful job today. No coach. As really is the systems and processes that we need to reshape to support teachers and coaches to be better educators and coaches. So I definitely think the majority of my work is trying to make sure the systems and processes are better, and also that they are equipped with the knowledge and understanding and competence to be able to deliver, which will then affect their confidence. And then we’re in that positive spiral of confidence and competence. Rather than I don’t feel very confident, I don’t I don’t feel very competent in teaching this, I just avoid it. And we have that narrowing of the curriculum or narrowing of the experiences. So yeah, there’s there’s lots in there. But ultimately, I definitely think that it needs to be higher up on the agenda, and everyone will say that, but we NS put it perfectly into rather than six of that PE and has a valid relative value. So it’s important. When you talk to anyone, everyone will say, of course Physical Education, Health well being is important. And then they continue that that sentence with a but but not as important as numeracy and literacy are not as important as our attainment, eight scores or not as important as English and maths. So we our biggest thing is to stop that, but that second part sentence happening, and the way we can do that is by upskilling the workforce because they are. And I say that tentatively. There are some fantastic PE teachers out there and coaches. I guess it’s more like standardising the workforce so that everybody has a quality experience, and elevating the value, and ensuring that wider systems like Ofsted and the DfE understand the value of school sport and physical activity. And that’s baked into the assessment procedures. However, with more accountability comes more and more responsibility. So we have to also be ready. Because if we do get equal status as a core subject, for example, that’s just been highlighted as a, something you’d like, it comes in more accountability. So we need to be ready for that. To maintain that seat at the table.
Rob Anderson
Fantastic. Well, thanks very much for the work that you’re doing. Because I know you know, if, if the improvements you’re talking about happen then coaches in 510 1520 years or have you been thankful for, you know, better quality movies coming in and you know, people who are more competent and confident. So, you know, it’s it’s great. There’s people like yourselves behind the scenes pushing that agenda. Where can people find out more about you and about the work that you’re doing your research, physical literacy in general.
Liz Durden-Myers
So the best place to find me is on a website called PE scholar, so just pe scholar.com. Or you can follow me on Twitter at Mr. And Myers. But yeah, we’ve got some really exciting projects coming up and just anybody and so I do a lot of work with coaches. But all sectors really sport physical activity, health, wellbeing, health, education, and leisure. So if you are a person that works with young people, or even just anybody in the physical activity sphere, and want to know a little bit more about physical literacy, please do reach out and we’re here to support you. And it might just be learning a little bit more, or you might be really willing and ready to look differently at your practice than in the pursuit of better movers for life. Fantastic.
Rob Anderson
Well, thanks for great conversation and a few thought provoking comments. Dale is certainly given me something to chew on. So thanks. Thanks again for your time. It’s been great.
Liz Durden-Myers
Thanks for the invitation. I really enjoyed the conversation.